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In Reply to: Re: then if it is about feelings posted by excog on January 21, 2006 at 12:26:53:
" But what I was stressing was the relationship between the leader and the follower, the abdication of personal will and being willing to do anything: have sex with a child, have sex with any adult because I am told to, move here or there because I am told to, pray for someone to be killed, be a warden in a prison camp, beat and or torture children...the list is long."
Perceptions vary with each person and on some levels there are things we agree on and things we differ in opinion on.
For instance, when saying something is culturally American, that is a real mixed bag. What part of American culture? The part that is Hassidic Jewish, Bronx Italian, Texas Good ole boy, Texas Dixie Chick and Willie Nelson Fan, California Schwartzenegger or Feinstein fan? African American community? Blacks in America that don't relate to "African American", Catholic cultures, protestant cultures, American Indian culture, ad infinitum.
Do you see a difference from people who "abdicate their will" and people who get drawn into something believing it to be quite different from what is presented? Examples would be a woman from an abusive family who gets in a relationship with a man who is charming and considerate only to find out over time that she is in a prison, emotionally and believes it to be her fault quite often?
When a person is said to "abdicate will", is there not a difference when a person does so knowing what they are getting into?
Cultural examples that are comparative and way before cults started:
Chairman Mao's China and the Cultural Revolution as its peak.
Hitlers rise to power, Mussolini's and Stalin's.
Society seems to be made up of people that are leaders and followers or loners.
It doesn't seem to be limited to one country's "culture". It also does not seem to be limited to religion either.
I can say that while I was in there were three basic things that freaked me out: harsh discipline (before it ever even got to the levels of harshness that occurred when Jumbos, combos etc started)
Praying for the death of others that were "enemies"- I am not sure when that started though I do clearly remember reading testimonials, at least one in a NNN mag. which was about this and Berg cursing the Jews. Those things freaked me out and I never did them. I probably felt I was wrong, but I could not do that.
Forced sex with adults or children. I didn't do either and the letters that were coming out led to my leaving even though I felt wrong inside. I think cults and societies that follow leaders have so many dynamics going that keeps the ball rolling. The PRIMARY FACTOR that keeps it rolling is FEAR. Fear of ones own death, death of loved one or ones- for stepping out of line, or grave reprisals for stepping out of line.
That fits battered women's syndrome, political totalitarian states, and cults.
It seems to be a human condition that is most unfortunate for those who experience living in it by birth, by naievete, by youthful ideals and an idealized cause spearheaded by a person no one could know in advance was going to turn their world into one of such repression.
Who gets penalized in the end? And who should be? Top officers that toe the line, top war criminals who commit atrocities and are identified by eye witness testimonials, in the case of batterered women, their perpetrators in cases where damages are verified and charges are filed.
Being in a cult, joining one not knowing it was one does not make people the same as those who joined a group knowing it was involved in criminal acts and knowing it was wrong by societal standards, at the outset is NOT the same as joining a cult or a group that KNOWINGLY is engaged in criminal activity.
NEvertheless, they are all similar because of the leader who DOES KNOW what they are doing whether they are psychotic or not and because of the levels at which people cross boundaries with an awareness that it is considered criminal by legal standards.
One thing Berg did was use cultures in Eastern and third world countries to try and normalize pedophilia giving it the name "child brides". I know one thing, I left because of what was coming but not because I knew it to be wrong, rather because I could not override the gut feeling of what I could tolerate as opposed to what was on the menu AND things came together to be able to leave.
You are right that any situation has many variables.
Have you watched "The Savage Messiah"? It's a Canadian film and very similar to both Berg and Manson and there is a parallel drawn to domestic violence. It's based on a small cult in Canada. Some people remain loyal to that cult leader even having conjugal visits with him to this day.
The thing that stands out to me is the amount of pain that was necessary for people to break away AND what they would give up, their own children, to stick by him. But SOME did leave him.
When I think of the exer community, it seems sometimes even decades after leaving it is necessary for some to punish themselves over and over again. I don't understand that. Especially not in the sense that many were themselves on the end of being abused never even attaining any leadership status.
Others that did attain it, have left it behind and come out about the past, or have divorced themselves, publically anyway- from that past to go on with their lives. I understand both options.
I also think that Berg took people into his inner circle who he sensed were very vulnerable and also able to be tight lipped and absolutely loyal to him.
Some have talked about how Berg saw them and gave them a stare, seemed to not trust them even when they were "not anybody" when seeing him in the early days. He sized people up and put people around him who fit.
Maria started building them same for herself as he was alive and even before he was slipping into his dementia.
BTW, thanks for your clarifications.
