Text of the FF'ing Discussion on Wikipedia

Here is the text of the discussion on Wikipedia regarding FF'ing. This is where I inserted the text from "Make it Pay" after being challenged by a Pro-COG editor to show a quote where Berg told members to exchange sex for money.

I know that this site is very difficult to navigate and understand, so I've copied this discussion over for those who are interested. To see the full conversation, or participate in it yourself go to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Children_of_God#Flirty_Fishing


Flirty Fishing
I would like to suggest that we remove the pointless and incomplete quote from Gordon Melton describing how he thinks FFing started. It is even LESS honest and forthcoming than the official statment offered by the Family. Maybe taken in context, it actually goes somewhere (eg. "They began to pursue friendships, and saw that by having sex with these lonely people they could show them God's love") but as it stands, is a complete non-sequitir. It is jarring and confusing where it is, if it even belongs in the article at all (the credibilty of Mr Melton having already been cast into doubt) ThePedanticPrick 00:11, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The pro-COG editors have made many changes to those paragraphs covering Flirty Fishing (FFing). By any definition of this practice (including actual statements from their leader and founder, David Berg) this amounted to little more that religious prostitution. From the group’s own writings the practice was stopped "because of the AIDS scare and because a female member of the group died of AIDS." The Rt. Hon. Lord Justice Ward describes this practice in his 1995 ruling ([16] (http://www.exfamily.org/art/misc/justward_master.shtml) under the section of "Flirty Fishing (FFing)").

Prostitution is defined as the exchange of money for sex. Family members were not encouraged to exchange sex for money. It is also a crime in most countries. If you can't prove it by pointing to the document that says it then it is unprofessional and libelous to say this, the Ward judgment not withstanding. Even the documents he quotes from deny sex was exchanged for money and he doesn't cite FFing to be prostitution in his "Evidence on FFing". It is his opinion that it was, however it wasn't proven in law nor cited as fact. Family members were encouraged that they could have sex with others if a relationship went that far. Casual sex was a hallmark of the social climate in those days in many countries so if people were having casual sex for no better reason than personal gratification then why not have it for a better reason, that is to show someone that they were loved not only by us but by God too who created sex at least as much for our enjoyment as procreation. That was the rationale behind Flirty Fishing and that can be found in every document Berg wrote on it. The fact that long-term "fish" often gave gifts to the Homes also does not make FFing prostitution. David Berg was named as a defendant in a case in Italy and charged with incitement to prostitution among other things on the basis of his writings. The 3 judge panel ruled that Flirty Fishing was not prostitution and Berg and his co-defendants were exonerated on that and the other charges. A discussion on this case can be found here [[17] (http://www.cesnur.org/testi/TheFamily/italy.htm)]
So if the only criminal case ever brought concerning FFing found it wasn't prostitution (and the judges there had all the same documents that Justice Ward had) then how can it be called that in an encyclopedia? --Cognomen 00:17, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)


Concerning CESNUR, It should not be considered a source for any valid information whatsoever. It is just a facade for cult apologists. It has a very dirty history. Information on that here. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c10.html EBW




Thorwald Why did you revert my last edits? I have scrupulously stuck to the middle ground you touted that you wanted to meet on. --Cognomen 18:15, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Cognomen: Sorry. I was trying to revert to the version before the FCF-user's edits and yours was in the middle. I would, however, like to discuss your edits and the description of FFing a bit more before committing to your changes. Prostitution, in my mind, is not simply the exchange of sex for money; it is the exchange of sex for anything other than just reciprocal sex. This may be a strange idea and, in fact, I need to ponder it a bit more. However, the idea behind "religious prostitution" seems to be to draw people to the "temple" . . . and to get some money out of them. If you are trying to tell me that Berg never suggested that these women get some money out of their "kings", than you and I are not reading the same sources. Thorwald 18:52, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thorwald I am happy to talk this out with you. Having lived through that period in The Family in several countries I think I can bring a first hand perspective of what happened aside from reference to printed sources. Merry Christmas!--Cognomen 19:17, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
from EBW I'd like to stick this in here. I also lived through that period in the family. In late 1978 Berg wrote a letter called "Make it Pay" in which he ordered the family women to demand (not request) some sort of financial aid in return for sex. At that time there was relative liberty due to the RNR and people were still free to follow their own personal leadings. However later the family became much more tyrannical. And from 1984 to 1990 there was certainly no leeway for personal leadings on the matter. FFing was a support ministry. It was expected to bring in money. EBW

A significant number of homes were supported financially by FFer's "fish", this is a hallmark of the late 70s and 80s in the family, with many very wealthy homes where the best FFers lived. Even right up until the late 90s (and probably continuing in very rare circumstances -- as in the Narita's in Japan, and that Indian fellow, who owns some textile business, I can't remember his names, are still being FF'd and are still supporting the Family homes and WS (although I think that the N's income may have tapered off). The fact is FFing was a huge financial supporter at all levels of The Family. gcom 07:21, 2004 Dec 26 (UTC)
It seems you have quite an insider knowledge on this. If that is the case you would also know that even if the "fish" did give financially or materially to the Homes that it still would have to be seriously stretched to equal prostitution. If that was the case any woman who was supported by her lover would have to be classed as a prostitute. The people you refer to above are members of the Family and have been for 10-20 years, so that would seem to negate your comment that they are still being FF'd. And huge would be quite a stretch of the immagination as far as support is concerned. If you have lived in any of our Homes, as you seem to have, then you would know that large financial reserves or income are not hallmarks of our organization. We run our missions on a shoestring.--Cognomen 19:52, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Cognomen: (1) I didn't mention financial reserves, I said "wealthy homes", and yes, I realize it's all relative, but these were truly wealthy homes supporty by escorting and FFing. (2) FFing was done for *both* support and for witnessing, and escorting is in the Seven Supporters booklet published by the family as a fundraising method, as evidenced by the title of the booklet. (3) "God's Whores", "Heaven's Harlots", etc. These are all easily found in old FFing pubs with a light perusal. Bottom line for me is I don't see why you seem to want to cover up this history. It's interesting, it's relevant, and it happened. I honestly think that it makes The Family seem more shifty if these things are whitewashed. I think the goal here for most of us here is an NPOV article that describes the truthful history of The Family, of which FFing and Escorting are a part. (BTW, personally I don't care one way or another whether the word prostitute is used, so I'm not attempting to argue for that point, but I am attempting to argue for the facts that I know, so if someone tries to say that some FFing was not done for support I'm just going to have to call them on that, and I'm suprised that any Family member can rationally dispute that.) (4) Those "members" are completely honorary. I'm not questioning their desire to serve god or anything, but the fact is they did not have to follow the same Family rules, and they were essentially suppporting large amounts of The Family's work. I'm actually not certain that Mr. Narita was originally FF'd though, so I take that back subject to confirmation, but I think the point stands. gcom 21:52, 2004 Dec 30 (UTC)
Gcom: I can agree that FFing ended up being a supporter. That was not its original intention, though, and I think you would agree with me on that. What I don't like seeing a trigger words like "prostitute" which brings up what I believe is a distorted picture of what was happening in the mind of a casual reader. It is an interesting part of Family history and I don't want to just ignore it. What I do want is for it to be presented in an NPOV way. I put in the sentence about Family women working for escort agencies then hyperlinked it to the entry on escort agencies so people can make up their own mind on the issue. I think the way it was handled at the beginning was that the original edit was written to display the women's actions in a negative light and completely ignored what I believe was the altrusitic reasons they did it in the first place. And as for the three people mentioned, they all regard themselves as Family members not just honorary members. Heaven's Harlots was a book written by an exmember and is not a Family publication. --Cognomen 22:51, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
From EBW Not such a stretch as you claim. Fish were expected to give. And it was not just whatever they wanted to give. In one home where I was, the leadership more or less blackmailed a particular "fish". He owned a restaurant in Japan. In fact it was me who first met him and initially he was just a friend who came over a few times. But then the shepherdess of the home decided to "FF" him. Thereafter, whenever the home finances were low, she would show up unexpected at his restaurant for sex and to get another donation. After I left the family I spoke with him and he said that he had been terrified that his wife would find out. He never wanted to have such a relationship at all. She the shepherdess) would show up in front of employees and literally drag him into a backroom for "business". Making a scene would have been even a bigger scandal than just submitting. EBW

Paragraphs on escort agencies should not have been deleted because there were many people that I know first hand worked with escort agencies and were encouraged to when I was in Europe in the "Family of Love". Not all female members went with escort agencies but a number of them did. Berg wrote in a letter that as long as the women were having sex to reach people they might as well be making money doing it. Berg also wrote letters including one called "God's Whores". How much more straightforward does one need to be to sStatistics and daily diaries were kept including number of people f*d, how, what they were by profession etc(demographics) and the most personal basic information was to be recorded in 15 minute increments by the group member. There are too many exers that recall this to make a case for libel against us. I would be interested in seeing the ex "Family of Love" and current whatever-they-call-themselves leadership try and make a case of it. There are many who would love to see current top leadership in orange jumpsuits with roommates bigger and butcher than they are.

I have deleted these two paragraphs about escort agencies and family separations as they are not NPOV in any sense of the word. In what cities and who opened escort agencies. And do the math! What women could FF several hundred men a month? Unless it just goes to show that FFing did not involve sex in the vast majority of cases. The last sentence then becomes meaningless. And what data is presented to show that it became the rule for couples to separate because of FFing or that it devastated the children of the group. All the psychological profiles performed on the children in our group show that they are well adjusted or better than societal norms. So unless you can provide empirical data on this then this has no place in an encycopedia.
While there was a letter by the name of God's Whores it was named that for shock value. The letter itself did not live up to the title. The diaries referred to were I believe the One Heart Diaries which were modeled on the well-known 7 Star Diary. There purpose was to record work and other activities and the day was divided in 30 minute segments, from what I can remember, and most of us didn't keep them anyway.
I have also deleted the quotes from "Many former Family members" because unless they were all reciting it at the same time it does not make sense. Also, it is pure polemic that doesn't fit the facts. Who are these anonymous former members and what sources are cited aside from the Ward Judgment? --Cognomen 00:34, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Cognomen here, the Family really didn't run escort agencies in any sense that is relevant to this article. If it happened (which it quite possibly did, I seem to recall something) it was pretty uncommon and unusual and really not a standard or promoted practice of any kind. They just worked for the agencies in some larger cities, particularly in Asia. I also agree that the original version describing escort work just wasn't NPOV enough, so in the absence of a better edit it seems better to put on ice until someone fixes it. gcom 21:52, 2004 Dec 30 (UTC)

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a little insert here----------------

COGNOMAN, You have a lot of nerve declaring what does and does not belong in an encyclopedia. One thing that does belong is the truth. FF report forms were certainly not the same thing as Open Heart Diaries. They were detailed information sheets about the men FFed. The title of the Mo letter God's Whore's was not for shock value and it certainly would not have shocked members at that time that's for sure. Not with all the graphic sex pictures on the cover of nearly all the letters at that time. As for the cities where the family either ran or worked for escort agencies, the list would be in the hundreds. I have posted some that I saw firsthand and I know there were many many more. If you were in the Family at all at that time you know that this is true. So why pretend otherwise. As for what is NPOV. I don't think lies fit the criteria. As for the psychological profiles you mention, why not ask the children who grew up in the family what they think about that subject. Better yet I'll ask them for you and post a link to their replies.

EBW


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I agree with you, to an extent. I have a tendency to doubt that the Family actually opened their own escort services (it would be hard to keep that selah), but I am fairly certain that many of them worked as escort girls. Acronyms like ESing don't just appear out of thin air now, do they? I also find the "several hundred" figure a little extreme -- did they mean "per year"?. And while it was quite common for parents to separate, I think it may be pushing it to say that it was the rule, rather than the exception. But I think it bears mentioning that Berg once said "God is in the business of breaking up marriages and families!" (sorry, I don't have an exact quote, but you've unwittingly challenged your opponents to find it and cite it, and I'm sure someone will shortly)
I also think it was rather sloppy to post a two-paragraph quote without citing the source. Whoever posted that needs to do their homework better. By the same token, I'd like to suggest that you produce a copy of this Mo-letter "God's Whores" that you say is so innocuous and innocent. I'm betting you won't be able to, as it's been burned. Funny things do happen! ThePedanticPrick 08:41, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
PedanticPrick: Funny you should use such familyism (Funny things do happen!) Wonder where you picked that up ;) gcom 21:52, 2004 Dec 30 (UTC)



Yes funny things do happen. I have added a sentence in the article to satisfy the escort service question. However, I think things have taken on a very nasty tone and I apologize if I have contributed to that. Nevertheless, I am concerned that what is written is accurate and not turned into hyperbole. The paragraphs I deleted were full of supposition and not worthy of an academic work such as this. As for the serveral hundred loved per month figure the EBW reiterates below, there are not enough hours in the day for this to be a real stat.--Cognomen 17:57, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
From EBW to COGnoman I seriously doubt if your edit will "satisfy" the escort service question. I have asked well known top veteran of ESing to write a brief commentary concerning her experience. I will try to condense it to a short factual paragraph and insert it into the article. I'll post her entire commentary here. You'll like it I'm sure.

EBW



EBW has changed her figure to 200+ per month. There are enough hours in the day to see 6-7 clients. I agree, however, that this should be left out, unless it can be verified. ThePedanticPrick 04:52, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
From EBW Not a change just a clarification. As I remember the highest figure I ever saw was about 250. I might specify that a few family women were actually working in massage parlors or as exotic dancers in clubs. These had "stats" higher than those working for escort agencies. EBW




I have deleted "as a way to meet wealthy businessmen." EBW from her post below, since she has seen all this first hand can probably attest you don't know who you will meet. And I have deleted the nasty little inserted paragraph in the previous section about FFing. We are having an open debate here about this subject so I think if someone wants to add something that they should at least explain why.--Cognomen 00:11, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Escort services aren't cheap, and they are most commonly frequented by lonely businessman (would you prefer this term?). I think we might have to compromise here. I don't doubt that FFing had noble goals (albeit unusual methods) in mind, but in practice, things got out of hand, and the evidence is clearly there that it began to closely resemble prostitution. Can you agree to this? ThePedanticPrick 04:52, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Okay, I can agree to lonely businessmen. Thank you for your conciliatory approach here. I now have it from 4 different sources that EBW's claims to NPOV below are far from unbiased. The persecution in Indonesia was due to a backlash from radical Muslims who objected to the the group's Christian witnessing, especially the conversion of the daughter of a prominent Muslim family who moved into a Family Home. Apparently some Christian churches were also happy to get in on the act. The other claim that people in our group ran escort agencies in Indonesia and Singagpore is also stretching the fact. We FF'd in both countries and some girls worked with escort agencies but we did not run them. Perhaps Cassandra who posted a message on my user page might want to corroberate this information. Cognomen 00:13, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
From EBW Concerning the Family opening it's own escort agencies. I know this to be true in many cities.

In Austin Texas the Family actually ran 3 escort agencies simultaneously from 1979 through 1983 (and perhaps even later). These agencies were in continual contact with each other and the same women might be paged from all three agencies. In Houston Texas there was also a family-run agency during this same time span. In Indonesia from the fall of 1983 until the spring of 1984, I personally saw Family run-agencies in Jakarta, Surabaya, Bandung, and Yogyakarta. I know they also existed in many other cities. There was also a Family agency in Singapore. The so-called "persecution" in Indonesia in the spring of 1984 was largely a govenment reaction to this widespread prostitution activity throughout the country which targeted the rich and particularly government personnel.

All of the above were agencies that I personally knew to exist and saw in operation. I know that the same thing was going on all over the world.

Such escort work was considered to be FFing and the clients were counted in monthly statistics as "Fish Loved". It was through such escort work that some FFers reported several hundred "Fish Loved" per month. These statistics were published worldwide in Family publications.

Of course a woman who "loved" 200 or more men in a month was not spending too much time witnessing about Jesus. But such "scores" did exist and they were praised as being real testimonies of the sacrificial love of Christ.

I can testify that giving was not optional in such escort agencies. The client paid a set fee for the woman's time. What they did during that time was their own business but was definitely on a pay for play basis.

These are facts. And they are totally NPOV.

EBW

EBW, it seems from your posts that you were a Family member, probably a woman, and that you probably FF'd and maybe even worked at escort agencies. Why do you insist on posting stuff that has the effect of labeling yourself a prostitute?--Cognomen 22:51, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The definition of Prostitute is clear. Websters says: "One who solicits and accepts payment for sex acts.". This is what the letters told women in The Family to go out and do. This is what Women in The Family went out and did. People become prostitutes for all kinds of reasons. Some people do it simply to survive. Regardless, accepting payments for sex acts is prostitution. I don't think one can expect society to change the definition of the worlds oldest profession just to help current members feel better about what the group did in the past. FYI, I am not a current or former member, so if you want a NPOV, here it is. Indian Joe 23:56, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Indian Joe, can you quote me which letter told women in the Family to go out and "solicit and accept payment for sex acts"? --Cognomen 00:33, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Cognomen, I'll start with this one:

Indian Joe Nice try. Perhaps we should put in the previous paragraphs so you see it in context. Something which you neglected to do on purpose no doubt.--Cognomen 06:59, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"MAKE IT PAY!"--By Father David March 13, 1978 MO DO No.684 Copyright © by The Family of Love, April 1978, CP 748, 00100 Roma, Italia.

3. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SLICE THE FFing, BECAUSE IF YOU DO IT RIGHT IT WON'T COST YOU A DIME! It's ridiculous that our men are still going out with the girls and still paying the bills! No wonder you can't afford FFing!
4. IF IT'S DONE THE RIGHT WAY IT WILL PAY FOR ITSELF. It not only would be paying for itself, but it ought to be generating income for the whole work.
5. WE OUGHT TO TAKE THE GIRLS OFF THE FF LINE IF THEY CAN'T EVEN MAKE IT PAY for itself! I'm sure the guys would help.
6. MOST OF THE GUYS OFFER, "CAN I GIVE YOU ANYTHING? Is there anything you need? I'd like to help you somehow." Now what do they say to those guys?
7. "OH NO, WE'RE FINE. NO, WE DON'T ACCEPT MONEY, blah, blah." When don't we accept money?! We may not accept money for sexual service or get paid on the spot, but we'll sure accept the money if they want to give it to us!
8. "WELL, IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A DONATION TO OUR HOME OR BUY THE CHILDREN SOME FOOD or get us this piece of furniture, that'd be wonderful! There's a nice bed here in your hotel room, but I don't have one at home. How would you like to buy me a bed?" (Maria: I think they're too proud.) Absolutely!
9. IF YOU'RE TO BE GOD'S WHORE YOU CAN'T HAVE MUCH PRIDE! Let me tell you, I never went to a whore yet that hesitated to ask for the money in advance. She didn't take off a stitch of clothes until you handed it over!

10. IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO LET THESE GUYS KNOW THAT YOU NEED MONEY you ought to get out of the FFing business! It's nice to win souls, but it's got to pay for itself.

11. MY LORD, YOU'RE PROVIDING ENOUGH FF SERVICE AND GETTING LAID, IT'S ABOUT TIME YOU GOT PAID! You brag about the great FFing you're doing, but if it's running up bills that you can't pay, it's not so great!

12. YOU SAY IT'S WINNING GREAT FRIENDS, BUT IF IT'S NOT PAYING THE BILLS then there is something wrong with their friendship!--Especially when you let them know that you need it.

13. IF YOUR AREA CAN'T AFFORD TO SUPPORT YOU, YOU'LL HAVE TO MOVE but I know it can. There is no reason why most countries can't support a few little Homes. There's just no excuse! "

Indian Joe 04:01, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Cognomen:I could have included the entire text of the letter, but you asked for specifics. I appreciate what you added, but I fail to see that it changes the context of the letter. "Make it Pay" was clearly about telling members to exchange money for sex, which is prosititution.Indian Joe 16:44, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)