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In Reply to: Re: interesting post on Moving On posted by Jules on September 09, 2004 at 18:13:54:
You are right in saying that there is a difference between being born and raised in a cult and having been recruited into one as a teen or an adult. I also believe there is much to be researched in this area on a professional level.
As far as I am concerned, I see your anger and hurt as more than justified.
I also believe wholeheartedly in self-responsibility. That does not mean that I believe the same about the FG experience as you do. At the same time I have no doubts about the veracity of all the stories that have been reported and written from SG's at different boards regarding their experiences. Even though under the influence of thought reform with a tightly controlled system, a person would not have much of a conscience or would simply be too raw themselves not to be able to look back and see where they hurt others. That is where I believe most FGs that are exers and have been in some sort of recovery process are able to look back and say to someone how much they regret something they did without the "buts". Then there is the issue of different generations that are exers coming out of the cult, getting help, taking a personal inventory of what they do not like about themselves and their experiences, actions occurs. I agree that this is a process that can take years. Certainly I don't expect SGs not to be angry. At the same time drawing the lines of responsibility has to be an inside job. A personal one. As one SG revealed above, there was just so much hurt of having no relationship to her father and his inability to acknowledge her hurts. That is all too common from what I have gathered in reading about experiences. It sounds like she or he would really like that from the father and fears (s)he may never get it.
Much of the pain comes from when something is broken that cannot be fixed. Not unless the other part can participate in the process of facing the horrors of the past. The ones where a person was involved, the ones where they observed and can listen to that hurt adult that needed a father and acknowledge the truth of what happened with no buts.
I did that with my family, who did not go thru anything like what most SGs describe. But I had to first do some work on my own life to be able to do that..to really be there and listen and acknowledge.
I never got that from anyone in my family of origin, and my abuse within that was very intense and not just a few incidents that were traumatic. I think that is what bothers me personally to feel the anger expressed so generally towards all exer FGs and to be referred to as a perp or an oldie or something else hurtful after experience so much of a lifetime of hurt. This does NOT diminish your pain or deny your reality. Maybe it can help you to understand my reactions.
You state that there are differences you have with professionals about the responsibility of FGs.
I am wondering if you ever got that kind of reaction of your own parents not taking responsibility over acknowledging that they did not protect you or were not there for you without the "buts" thrown in?
Sometimes that can cause people to get triggered when for an example an FG like ME does use explanations or makes comments -which I have a clear understanding now belongs on an FG board- and it feels like the parent that does not acknowledge the hurt child. (Not referring to you as a child but to the child in you that was hurt so very badly while in the group.)
Another thing is that as FGs we were so indoctrinated that personal thoughts, wants, needs, desires were "selfish", so now at a board where many FGS post, I want to be selfish and get some support from others for myself too. That is not wrong. And I react when FEELING like I am being categorized as a perv. or like my character was such that I would support, in my right mind now, the creepy crap that Berg exuded.
Regaining the "right mind" or a sense of self varies from person to person. I think because I went from my very abusive family of origin into a cult that appeared safer, though heavily controlled, I died inside the further the doctrines sunk til i jumped out STILL believing I was WEAK or wrong to do so. This was before aunties or uncles or camps etc. But not before any things happened that I can look back on and now see as abusive, even seeing it then but feeling wrong to have those feelings. I am not talking about sexual abuse here, but physical discipline and separation of families.
Perhaps it is enough for me to say I am sorry for what happened to you and others. I regret the losses I and my children had as a result of my getting into the family. I am glad I got out when I did, but I can understand how others felt trapped similar to battered women's syndrome. Anyway, all this to say there are some categorical truths. Severe abuses did occur. Children should not be subject to growing up in cults and societies need to be more aware like France, for instance, to differentiate between enforcing socialization for both parents and children as well as monitoring for protection against these abuses.
On a personal level, I admire your strength and efforts at projects like Safe Passage. I don't want to be disagreeable or controversial to your efforts or viewpoints at all. There are times when different messages bring up thoughts that if I said what I thought you wanted to hear and it was not what i really believed I would be hypocritical. I hope you get what you want from your family or in building your own family of choice. That is a hard row to hoe, I know from first hand experience. Reality for me is that my parents are dead and when alive, absolutely incapable of reconciliation though I think on his deathbed my father tried. I have no relations with my brother or sister. I don't even know where they live. But I do know where my family of choice is.
Hope the best for you.
