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In Reply to: clarity in communication posted by ray on August 07, 2003 at 08:09:02:
hey sam, i was wondering about your thinking in this post. my guess is that it is addressed to a much wider audience than david d. , as he did not ask the Question here, and i didn't see the answer under his post.[What difference does it make?] maybe i missed it. anyway, the thrust seems to be to convince people the family remains dangerous. i doubt there is too much need to convince the reg. posters i've heard here.[I am just replying to a post.] if it is to convince family leadership,[Ray I was not and what's wrong if I did?] this may be a more quixotic quest than i can concieve of.[waist of words, always have a hard time with the way you express yourslf on paper] if, however, it is to present the case to any recent departees who need more information to be disabused of their illusions, or perhaps help turn on a light bulb for a current member that might be searching for answers or information, than i have a few questions about some of what you said. [I don't know where or rather why you came up with all that. As I said above I was answering a post, like I have answered hundreds of other posts.]
i do not doubt that zerby , peter, and perhaps a few of the most totally committed insiders [the rank and file must be totally commited or the closest thing to it to take that oath they did and sign their name to it] still believe that adult-child sexual contact is acceptable in God's eyes.( i personally doubt that even they are crazy enough to still practice it.. having seen the consequences.)[They are crazy enough to practice Loving Jesus and what consequences? They got away with murder. Berg always knew the consequences but it didn't stop him from doing it most of his life. What goes one behind closed doors is something neither I nor you know. But judging from past performance, it's very possible they can do anything and keep it hidden. I was a shephard of a home and didn't even know about sharing. It was happening all around me, even ffing and I didn't know about it, and the only reason we found out about these things is because there came a Mo letter with the information.
Not until the RNR.] but, i would question the statement you made:"What is wrong with the family today is that they still very much believe all these things( sharing, childsharing, teen sharing, incest, ff'ing, child ff'ing, teen adult sex, lesbianism, etc.etc.,) are within the parimeters of what the law of love allows." wow. do you really think so??? [Why shouldn't I think so? It is all black and white in Berg's writings, child adult, incest, its all over the place. The Family believes Berg's writings, purged, unpurged, explained away by Zerby, lied about, pictured drawn over, the Davidito Book, they believe all that. He is their End time prophet, God's mouthpiece, what's so strange with what I am saying. His words are above the Bible, isn't that so? It's the new wine, spoken by the David of Ezikiel 34 and Hosea 2?.]
i do not have a lot of contact w/ fammems these days, but when i do, i do not believe ANY of the folks i meet believe that, or anything close to that.[Maybe you are so close, you can't see what's in front of you. It happens with flesh families for example. You want to see the best. You have a brother in there, maybe that is colouring your perception. Since when Family members are to be believed? Don't you know they lie and lie and lie and then lie some more? Did you expect them to tell you they believe in incest? The official policy since tht letter to the Judge (Answer him that asketh thee] is to lie about it, say it was a misundersanding and a communication problem.] what i do believe is that most fammems would see such a statement as patently untrue, and inflammatory.[Nonsense, they may tell yout that, but in their heart they know what they believe. There may be many kids that are deceived and trully believe the Law of Love never included child sexual abuse and incest, but I am talking generally about the group as a whole, the people who have been in for 30 years or younger adults who know what is going on. The Family decieves and lies to its members, but many, many of the members know and believe in their heart that there is nothing wrong with all that, it's part of the law of love] personally, i think this type of statement serves only to reinforce their impression that critics of the family are untrustworthy, and motivated by something less than a sincere search for truth.[You sound like the cult apoligists, you sound like you have never been in the Family].
personally, i believe that the sexual doctrines and practices are not the real CORE of what make the family dangerous.[I believe and it is very obvious to me anyway that the child sexual abuse, ffing, teen ffing, loving Jesus, all the sexual things going in are at the epicenter of what makes the Family dangerous, though there are other things] these things have surely sown untold damage in so many lives,[correct] but even if m&p got a prophecy tommorow saying it was all wrong and repented, it would still be a dangerous organisation.[It's not either or, this or the other, all of these are problems but in my humble opinion sexual sins and matters of sexual purity are of the topmost importance in the Bible. Even if all they did was the sharing, it would be a horrible thing happening in the name of god, by the authority of prophecies received by God, and practices by a group that is serving God.]
their beliefs and practices concerning spiritual authority, revelation, and approach to scripture would lead to some other equally destructive manifestation, imo.( heaven's gate were celibate !) [I don't disgree thouth more explanation would help me understand what you are trying to say more clearly.]
but, in my opinion, it may counterproductive to make statements that at the very least cannot be substantiated,[the burden of proof is on them, the Family. If I am not mistaken I did not say these things are happening, I am not going to go back and check, but I think I qualified it, I probably said, it may be happening, or it is possible that is happening. I don't believe I said I know it is happening. I would never say that about any other group. But I believe I can say it about the Family] and, at least in my opinion, do not reflect reality. [In my opinion the reality that is very clear to see is that the Family has never changed at all, and that they believe everything they have ever believed in these matters and if the laws changed tomorrow and it was ok to molest your own grandchild, the family would proudly to it en masse on television. It reminds me of one exmember who visited then and she said to me. "they are not changing, they are waiting for society to change".
back in the early days, one of my close friends to whom i'd been witnessing (tim concerned, in fact) was considering joining, but had some doubts.[I have read the story before, but too me it does not seem fair to compare the things I say to exageration in the media] then someone gave him a jesus paper w/ an article about us that said we'd been kidnapped, lived in caves, and were starved while being brainwashed, or some such nonsense. he knew that was a total lie, and reasoned if we were being lied about like that it must mean that we were being persecuted for our radical service to God.[and his reasoning proved to be wrong] he jumped on his cycle and drove to atl. to join. can you see what i'm getting at? [Yes, but I respecfully disagree with your overall view on things. I hope we don't start a threat a mile long and repeat the situation we got involved with in the past. I just stated my point and I really don't care in repeating what I just said over and over.]
what do you think, sam? [I think I said enough for you to know what I think. On a different subject, I would like to ask you a question also. I have been wondering what are the details concerning you son David. I heard he hit Kelly with his head at the Laurel meeting and he was going to the media and threating to go to the FBI, and some family members or some poeple sweet talked him out of it. Can you tell us what is fact and what is fiction?] Sincerely, Sam Ajemian
(I think you for not using sarcasm in your message to me.)
