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In Reply to: there are workarounds in place posted by webmaster on June 07, 2002 at 13:11:22:
I must apologize for my segmented posts. I post in haste. I also noted that I had not in any comprehensive way replied to your pridian reply to my first inquiry on this forum.
I'll continue to be segmented and quote and answer your post but I'll be more thorough this time.
(your posts will be in quotation marks)
"Yes, there really is a need for more consolidated online exer community resources. I see that, you see that. Question is, how do you go about achieving it?"
The technical aspects are irrelevant if we agree on the idea, the means can be discussed by any persons responsible for the design.
My concern was whether the end was something others are interested in. If we like the idea of a consolidated site we can get around the varied impediments sure to surface.
I am beginning to believe that a single ex site is a pipe dream, even if through unity we are able to make the best and most resourceful site I don't expect other webmasters to let their investments in time and effort (perhaps money as well) go to waste.
While I believe that having multiple sites is a detriment to the overall idea of the consolidated forum I don't think it's an indispensable situation and a exfamily webportal would be great. I envision something that does not attempt to be the site that gets the most exfamily hits, just one that serves the vastly different aims we all have in a more efficient manner. I am sure that with greater cooperation a consortium of sites would do nicely.
I'll explain my vision in more detail in a bit but I think that unless there are irreconcilable differences between the exfamily site members this has as its only impediment the will of the parties involved.
"Thing is, you aren't dealing with the mechanics of website building alone. I started off with grander proposals than what you mentioned. Project management is old hat to me and a couple of us here. In our daily work we deal with organizing people and utilize their talents, creating tangible products. And we never had to face the kind of hurdles you get dealing with this community and its needs and sensitivities. A lot of proposals get stone-walled like you can't imagine."
I actually can imagine, that's why I am touching base (a little bit elsewhere as well but primarily here). Our quotidian routines are sure to take their toll on our ability to achieve our goals. I intend to put my time at the disposal of the project I envision.
I am here to learn what issues cause what stonewall to sprout. Flexibility on my part is absolutely essential.
"At the risk of sounding defensive: this is true only in a certain sense, and it depends on your definition of "professional". For some people that is fancy graphics; for others that is anything that has a boxy frontpage newspaper column layout; for others it is a trendy taste, look-and-feel and style; for others it is (appearance of) credibility and verbal tone; for others it is the amount of content and/or the unification of the content; for others it means using the latest flash technology, etc. Much of this is totally subjective. "
I am for content over flash (pun soooo many kinds of intended here ;-). When I say disjointed I mean factitious, the sites are legion and the crossover of visitors is not at optimal levels. Some projects I have in mind require for the most possible exfamily members to see (like the collating of the legal names of family members, this is not just for legal purposes but also simply to contact persons we hold dear).
"(I think movingon.org is pretty "professional", don't you? I may have a different approach and understanding about how things work, but I'd still say it's pretty darn good, wouldn't you?)"
movingon is awesomely designed, I saw that on the few minutes I was there. My only qualm with that particular site is that the forum system needs to be improved, it's technically sound but not intuitive. I must give them kudos though they are at an advanced level of webdesign and I would certainly want them to participate as well.
"I believe our site is professional but lacks time and resources to go full swing - we haven't gone nearly as far as we want to. What you see is just a framework for better things to come. It may not have the corporate look and feel or standardized elements that some people consider "professional", but has a great deal of professional fore-thought and usability designs thrown in behind it. A lot of research went into every dot and pixel on our site - everything from the large contrasting menus on the top are there for a reason - the poor eye-sight of a good percentage of our older users. What makes our site "professional" is the ability to deliver punch, and the credibility and style it delivers (facts minus screechy emotional rhetoric). "
Ok, I hereby drop the "professional" label. Let's just say I have big dreams that are probably similar to the ones you spoke of having and would like to help see them realized. I don't care about colors and looks if there are others willing to do that, I care more about the logistics.
"Also, since it is not obvious to those visiting, I must mention that we have a back-end layer that is formed from completely customized scripts written from scratch, which we have full control over, and which are modular in nature and can be changed at will without collapsing the entire site. With the current framework, if we should decide that the time is ripe to add bold new features, we will probably never have to shut down the site for renovations.
(If you have suggestions for how we can do better what we are doing, we are open to them.)"
I ahve many, but please don'ttake me wrong, my idealism in this regard is in no way a criticism of the efforts that have been made. I simply think that it is within the realm of our possibility to do better, and if we can agree on that basic precept we have a foundation to work on.
"We originally had grand proposals for a one-stop portal site unifying all kinds of resources and information, but they developed into something much less than our original goals for a number of reasons. "
Would you be interested in trying again?
"While some of this is due to our lack of time, many of the reasons for settling for less are simply accepting the way the exer community works -- what they are ready for, what they expect, what they can accept. We've had to work around such limitations of the target audiences and market readiness. As I said, our experience is that this is unlike any other audience you are normally dealing with. "
I can understand that. I am aware of the ideological differences in opinion. That is why I am here asking questions and plaguing the webmaster. ;-)
"It is not a big challenge to build a "professional" website, some of us build e-commerce sites and corporate portals regularly for a living. But a profesional website is a lot more than web-design. As you must know if you are a professional designer, you have to co-operate with the guidelines and limitations set on you by other professionals. These advisors on your team will point to numerous 'market' factors that must be considered : legal aspects, privacy issues, target audience, your mission statement or agenda, usability, look and feel, credibility, style, audience sensitivities, political correctness, etc. "
I'm here to find out what the limitations are and how we can get past or around them. Or learn to live with as a last resort.
"If your target audience is current or ex-members, you will have to work with their needs and sensitivities, or you will not get the co-operation you want. "
As a target audience I envision a way in which all demographics are covered in a way in which their individual needs are addressed.
"If your target audience is neither current nor ex-members, and you wish to collect information, you will still have to consider your legal limitations and liabilities. If your purposal is to provide reliable information, your credibility and style will have to support that. Earning that credibility and trust is another whole thing. And it's vital when dealing with this crowd."
Dissemination of information would be the ideal aim for that audience, help can be solicited in the way of asking them to sign petitions, send letters, advise us on legal issues, and help us in any other way. But I intend to divulge information to this crowd.
"You can write to me at if you wish."
I will, I intend to change email addresses when I buy a domain but will certainly be in contact as long as it's ok with you.
"This depends on your agenda and mission statement of your site. Ours is to empower people with truthful information. If your agenda is litigation and pursuing criminal justice, you are treading on explosive ground -- the field will be very tricky to navigate. "
I do not support sensationalization of this issue. If litigation is merited it should be plain to all. If a family member commits a heinous act even other family members will recognize the need for the law to be complied with.
As long as nobody is under the illusion that any person is above the laws and morality that societies have decided on we should have no problem. The truth is more powerful that a vengeful need to hate and that is my aim. To offer and collect information that is truthful, not sensational.
"Nothing you have mentioned so far is anything we have not already proposed doing. "
That is encouraging.
"What you will find is extremely sensitive/offensive in this community, is using the "D" word - database.
It is an easily achievable matter even to collect through 3rd parties 1000s of names of almost all past and present family members, and to make a place ready for collecting their legal names if necessary. Sure we can set up a user input form somewhere and just collect this data. Some of us originally thought nothing of collecting information this way, but on the counsel and feedback of many key advisors, we have changed our minds.
What we learned was that there are serious issues of trust in this community. Such a proposal raised not only legal questions, but ethical questions, and paranoia questions, etc. "
I hear you loud and clear, I'm not likely to share my legal name anytime soon.
"Some fear getting implicated by such extensive information, having "skeletons" in their own closet.
Not everyone wants to see the Family destroyed or brought down. Some have blood relatives and loved ones still in the group and are hostage to the situation. "
I ahve brothers and sisters who are still in, my parents are as well. Destruction is not an end I have as my end the amelioration of the 2nd generations' chances of outside survival and my means are negotiable.
>I would like to know if the varied excog site webmasters would
>be interested in a better online front.
>
>If this is of interest please contact me by email.
>
>craven_de_mbl('kere','hotmail.com')">')
>
>I would be willing to pay for the hosting, domain name and put
>my design skills to use on this if we could consolidate our
>sites (especially the forum, I want 1 forum for all of us).
"That's the easiest part. "
More good news.
"Consolidating our sites is a tricky issue. Our experience is that there are many different agendas out there, and many individuals who cherish their independance and will not understand that their sites are lacking, and not serving the full potential of the latest internet technology and the information age. They don't even understand the need for better layout on their webpages :-p"
I had an inkling that it would be an issue but I believe it can be made to work. I know it can. Flexibility and transparency is a key.
"I am glad you are motivated to do something about what you see, and ready to take some action. And as a fellow web-designer, I am certainly happy you appreciate that there should be a better standard for things. I don't mean to sound condescending, but perhaps I am venting for what I've had to deal with. Believe me, it ain't easy! "
It's hard, I'm here to get help and offer help.
"Hope you'll get in touch with me, and I'd be glad to hear your ideas and proposals. "
I will get in touch with you but here I sought to post publicly to see whether my proposals are indeed wanted by none. Should that be the eventual case I'd rather know sooner than later.
I am out of time now but will go into greater detail about my projects soon.
