Posted by Doubtful on October 07, 2008 at 09:17:44
In Reply to: Re: Same-same but different posted by Edward on October 07, 2008 at 01:38:11:
Suicides occur in every segment of society, but at a slightly higher rate when it comes to members or ex-members of cults. This has been documented to stem generally from broken pysches and reintegration problems, not Revolutionary Suicide or cult-ingrained suicide ideation.
By current popular definition, Cult Suicides are interchangeable with and usually refer to Mass Suicides by cult members.
Revolutionary Suicides can be considered Cult Suicides, but Cult Suicides are not necessarily Revolutionary Suicides -- a cow is an animal but an animal is not necessarily a cow.
What is the definition of Revolutionary Suicide?
Edward, your definitions of "Revolutionary Suicide" are foggy at best: "[Ricky] was making a statement, to him it was a very real issue, and a very important statement, something he truly believed in [...] a belief, something he believed in, and wanted, or tried to do, that his last words were important."
On the other hand, there is clarity in the way which "Revolutionary Suicide" was used by others -- coined by Black Panther leader Huey Newton and borrowed by Jim Jones of the People's Temple, it meant death for political causes: a dignified way for "Socialists or Communists to die." (And it should be added here, the COG did not belong to that camp nor other political camps.)
With Cult Suicides, adherents of cults like the People's Temple (Jonestown), Solar Temple and Heaven's Gate, had suicide drills preparing for the big day. In contrast, no suicide drills were held in the COG. There is no documented or testimonial evidence for any preparations or test runs by COG members for mass or individual suicide.
Self-sacrifice and acculturation to dehumanizing conditions can serve many purposes. That suicide could be one of the potential purposes does NOT indicate it was the purpose, especially if this is not supported by other factors. And these other crucial factors, such as suicide drills and suicide ideation, are missing.
There are known Cult Suicides, and suspected and/or disputed Cult Suicides:
- The PT, Solar Temple and Heaven's Gate among others, have had known Mass/Cult Suicides.
- Disputed Cult Suicides are with groups such as the Branch Davidians in WACO.
- Ricky's suicide, although hijacked by popular culture and turned into something it wasn't, can hardly be called a Cult Suicide.
Which brings us to a relevant argument: martyrdom could be tantamount to suicide; by accepting or inviting their own death, the martyr is committing assisted suicide.
Although a grey line, the determining factor for differentiating between matyrdom and suicide would naturally be active-self-inflicted vs. passive death. Was this line blurred within the COG? Now that would be a valid point of discussion.
The question then is: can one distinguish between Berg's remarks on matyrdom vs. his ideation of suicide?
To me, with the preponderance of other supporting information, the answer is: Yes, Berg was glorifying persecution and martyrdom, but not suicide. As far as I know, there is more evidence to indicate that active-self-inflicted death was never promoted but rather heavily criticized. Great pains are/were taken to cover up suicides within the ranks.
That Berg made statements sympathizing with the PT and blaming it on persecution, is NOT stand-alone proof that he supported Revolutionary Suicide -- that would be fallacious logic.
In reading Berg's statements about the PT as an outsider focused on a single topic, it is easy for you to miss the bigger picture. Berg sympathized with all cults but Satanic cults, even those with whom the COG had nothing in common. TFI was/is in cohorts with the Scientologists. Berg idolized those who were hated by the mainstream, such as Khaddafi.